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#50676: "Add Confirm and/or undo button for all action steps that are able"

rejected: Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki

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Projekt Gaja #209089651

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Propozycja: moim zdaniem, następujące rzeczy bardzo poprawiłyby implementację gry

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Propozycja: moim zdaniem, następujące rzeczy bardzo poprawiłyby implementację gry

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#	Status	Votes	Game	Type	Title	Last update

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2021 Oct 14 20:27 • Snodnal • Ta propozycja nie została jeszcze przeanalizowana przez programistów:

Undo buttons! :)

2021 Oct 14 21:19 • Kayvon • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Thank you for the suggestion. We like the idea of easy undo buttons, but we've decided not to implement this for two reasons:

1) It goes against BGA's undo policy: boardgamearena.com/doc/BGA_Undo_policy

2) Implementing this in a clean way (i.e. a way that doesn't force all players' browsers to reset) is a significant undertaking and the effort doesn't justify the benefit

Sorry, we really would like an easy way to make this happen. It's a frequent requests on all games I've seen.

2021 Oct 14 22:31 • GTSchemer • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

@Kayvon which part of BGA's undo policy is this against? I looked at that page but I am confused what you mean.

2021 Oct 14 22:31 • Mogri • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

"As a rule of thumb, on BGA we advise you to not undo moves."

2021 Oct 14 22:36 • GTSchemer • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

I would also note it says:

'To know if this is a good idea to propose an undo, ask yourself the question: "when playing in real life, will my opponents authorize me to take back this move?". Depending on your answer, you should choose to provide an Undo, to not provide an Undo, or maybe to propose an Undo as an option for the game.'

Similarly, they mention Tzolk'in (a significantly lighter weight game) as an example of "Games with a complex serie of actions are an "exception" to BGA Undo policy."

Lastly, I'll note the guidelines state, 'To conclude: we may allow a player to undo a move caused by a "misclick", but we shouldn't allow a player to undo a bad move he plays consciously.'

Gaia Project already has a very nice undo/confirm for the Convert process, for example -- I am very glad this was implemented.

2021 Oct 14 22:43 • Mogri • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Similarly, you are asked to confirm or cancel after selecting a planet for a build/upgrade action, selecting planets for a federation, selecting a research track, passing, and so on. What can you accidentally click on without the possibility to change your mind?

Off the top of my head, that list includes things like the Nevlas free action, but I don't think it includes anything that involves the map or board.

2021 Oct 14 22:53 • GTSchemer • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

That's a good question! I agree there are confirm prompts at most steps where a misclick might happen.

2021 Oct 14 23:12 • Kayvon • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

I appreciate your notes on the BGA policy. If that were the only reason, we might be able to make a case for implementing it anyway. With both reasons in place, I'm afraid it's not a viable option for us right now.

Fortunately, confirmations are required at key points to prevent misclicks, which are usually the same points at which real life players would allow you to change your move anyway. ("I didn't mean to put these satellites here... let me rethink those... oh, and take this federation tile instead.")

As mentioned, I understand this is a common request on *many* games.

2021 Nov 14 11:59 • Ganesha888 • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Terra Mystica does it to the point of the last interaction with other players. Would remove the need to confirm all the single steps, too ;-)

Maybe let us roll back conversions as long as possible (ressources gained that way have not been used, same round)? Actually got me by surprise that it is not possible, since I'm used to it from TM.

2021 Nov 15 11:24 • VortexSurfer • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

There are many situations where an undo would be useful.
E.g. when charging power due to tech gain, it is not possible to undo in order to do conversions.

I second the suggestion of implementing the undo as in Terra Mystica.

2021 Nov 16 21:15 • Kayvon • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

BGA's undo policy states:

"As a rule of thumb, on BGA we advise you to not undo moves.

"Undo are painful for opponents, in real world and online. Some players may also use Undo to 'test' situations while they should just think instead.

"In many cases, proposing an 'Undo' means also adding an extra step, which is not good for the game interface."

While we are aware that TM is a similar game, it doesn't override BGA's undo policy. Even if it did, implementing undo isn't simply a copy-paste from their code. The good news it that BGA is pretty open with allowing additions to their code base, so it's possible an industrious fan may come along in the future and add it in.

2021 Nov 17 10:30 • Babbuc49 • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

I wanted to add that even if you don’t want to add undo for the whole turn there should at least be a possibility to undo conversions within the same turn (again just like TM) both because misclicks can and will happen and because a last minute change of mind as long as it’s still your turn should be acceptable

2021 Nov 17 17:36 • zachhorn117 • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Having to confirm every action you take during a turn isn't great UX, there should be one confirm/undo option at the end of your turn (or before other players charge power from your action like in TM) imho.

I also greatly dislike not being able to undo my conversions during my turn like I can in TM, to echo Babbuc49.

Please, please. please reconsider implementing this at some point. TM wasn't perfect when it first launched on here either, and it took years of feedback and tweaks to get it to where it is now, which is very well regarded.

I can't imagine GP going into Beta then Full release won't create many suggestions for an undo button from users who are used to having that option in TM and other heavier euros on here.

All that being said, thank you so much for getting GP on here lol.

2021 Nov 23 21:12 • Meeplelover • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

If you aren't going to add an undo then please add some commentary for wasted, bad moves. I did a double terraform on a space which only required 1 terraform and could not undo. I also converted 2 green things to workers because I thought I could build 2 mines on 2 planets and could not undo that either

2021 Nov 25 13:33 • incredibul • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

As a UX Designer, I heavily disagree with BGAs Undo Policy. Especially in complex games like Gaia Project. The wording "Players need to think" is fair if you finished your move, but if the error did happen while did your move, it's unnecessariliy punishing.

- Games on BGA are originally designed to be played with physical components. There is an error source in a game like Gaia Project that would never happen in real life. Those are small things like picking the wrong Academy or upgrading the wrong building. The player has a visual disconnect between boardstate and question dialogue, especially their own player board. In a physical game, the player would have taken the right piece in the first place. Undo is a good solution to give the player the opportunity to inspect the boardstate that they would much more actively create in a physical game.

- Gaia Project is, especially in the first two rounds, quite punishing if you do something wrong. It can mean that you already know the entire 2-3 hours of playing the game will result in a loss.

- Playing with my gaming group once every week digitally (because of corona), Analysis Paralysis skyrockets for games that have no undo.

- Not offering Undo is a cardinal sin of User Experience Design uxdesign.cc/always-have-a-back-button-4007e124cefa . All the usual reasons for this apply. (In the link, even a real time computer game like DOTA implemented an undo)

- BGA says "Users have to think". But Users should think about awesome strategies or how to improve our world or the multitude of things that happen in their life, not how to make sure they won't commit an error (that usually would not happen in the real game.

2021 Nov 25 16:11 • Kayvon • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Incredibul, have you considered reaching out to BGA about your opinion on their policy? We don't control their policy and, as far as I know, they don't read the individual bug reports.

Their policy is half the reason I'm not implementing undo for Gaia Project. The other half is that I don't want to volunteer 16 hours to implement a feature that I don't feel is needed, though I'm not personally opposed to the idea if industrious fan comes along in the future and adds it in. Like most optional features, having an extra one doesn't really affect me.

2021 Nov 25 18:51 • Deeyo • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Things i have done Mistakenly with 6 games under my belt.
- clicking research station instead of Planetary Institute.
- Misclicking approve conversion button while confirming from phone.

Of course with each game you become more careful. Still it is a long/planning game, even experienced players can do mistakes. It is a pity when game becomes a drag for the person that committed the mistake.

2021 Nov 28 00:11 • Diagonal • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Reading the undo policy there appears to be a proviso for exactly the sort of thing you might need to do in Gaia Project "The typical example is a complex strategy game with a long serie of actions during your turn.".

Stuff like converting resources to try and build a 4th research station, or not realising the planet you wanted to build a mine on had just been taken by another player.

The link you provided detailes a relatively simple (but ugly) undo using undoSavePoint, which could even be an optional feature like you say.

2021 Nov 28 00:32 • Mogri • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Gaia Project is a complex strategy game, but two actions hardly qualifies as a long series.

2021 Dec 2 10:03 • Martym • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

A Undo button on conversion would be very helpful as this is a different screen and especially as Conversions are not visible on player board (not until the end of the game)

2021 Dec 13 14:20 • Corwin007 • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Agreed. I just converted my last gaiaformer as Baltaks (forgot it was the last), tried to undo, but it's nowhere in site.

2021 Dec 17 22:08 • Otis480 • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

I would also appreciate if a possibility to undo moves would be implemented in a similar way than in Terra Mystica. As long as the move-timer is not reset I do not see any problems with undo. After a move is totally confirmed undos should not be allowed, which follows from the boardgamearena policy.

Nevertheless: Thanks so much for implementig one of my all time favourite games on this site :-)

2022 Feb 27 09:42 • Diablange74 • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Hi,

Like many players around here, I think an undo button, at least for conversion steps, would be a good idea. It doesn't have any impact on other players turns and fast clicks do happen... Not having an undo button at this step feels like over-punishing, the game is already complex and punishing enough if you take bad decisions, this should not be an additionnal punishment. :)

+1 to the remarks comparing to TM...

2022 Mar 27 22:49 • JamTangle • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

A restart turn button exists in so many games on here (Castles of Burgundy off the top of my head). I recently chose upgrade building and selected a Research Station. All fine so far. Then I realised that I could not select the advanced tech tile I wanted because I meant to form a federation first. But it was already too late and I had to select a different tech tile. In a game where resources are meticulously planned out it was a killing blow for me. And something at the table that would have been a quickly and easily rectified. This game needs a restart turn option and I hope that the developers realise this is something possible for their game within BGA and look to implement it in the future.

2022 Mar 27 22:53 • Kayvon • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

BGA's undo policy states:

"As a rule of thumb, on BGA we advise you to not undo moves.

"Undo are painful for opponents, in real world and online. Some players may also use Undo to 'test' situations while they should just think instead.

"In many cases, proposing an 'Undo' means also adding an extra step, which is not good for the game interface."

I believe this conversation has run its course. I would invite those interested in in changing the policy to comment here instead: boardgamearena.com/bug?id=13887

2024 Jul 22 23:15 • waxoid • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Thanks to developers for making this adaptation happen!

My group is having a rough go with this BGA game relative to other complex games like Ark Nova which allow an ability to restart a turn as long as you have not done something irreversible like look at a card.

The game has many details that are easy to misunderstand and this BGA adaptation has some unclear UI that is easy to misuse or misread. For example, yes 'convert' asks for confirmation, but it doesn't show you what you are converting, so isn't really helpful.

If you accidentally (say) tap a conversion twice (e.g. unsure if it registered the first given lack of feedback) you have no idea you've just lost your last QIC along with your entire strategy for the remainder of the game (not that this didn't just happen to me.)

Complex games are full of fine print gotchas that in the real world everyone grants mercy over – 'oh you didn't realize you couldn't do that yet, sure then you don't want to waste your X go ahead and take it back and take a different move.'

I assume the comment about "painful for opponents" means in realtime games? Seems like there would be a lot of options for limiting that (including options to just set up realtime games that don't allow resets or undos.)

Do the implementation challenges extend to implementing a single 'restart turn' option? That adds no steps.

I'll comment on the BGA policy thread as well, but just thought I'd point out how well received (and well used) the 'restart turn' option is in Ark Nova, a very popular game on here.

Thanks again for making this possible.

2024 Jul 22 23:20 • waxoid • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

The latest on the attached thread is that undo is "now part of our [BGA] guidelines for most premium games", so it sounds like the BGA policy has changed.

Is a 'restart turn' option feasible, and less complex than undo of all sub-steps?

2024 Jul 22 23:57 • Kayvon • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

> Do the implementation challenges extend to
> implementing a single 'restart turn' option? That
> adds no steps.

Yes, it absolutely includes that. Even if it's easy to describe, it's still difficult to implement (and that's before considering that opponents often make decisions during your turn).

> Is a 'restart turn' option feasible, and less
> complex than undo of all sub-steps?

Again, no. We've already implemented the full amount of what's feasible and less complex.

> just thought I'd point out how well received (and
> well used) the 'restart turn' option is in Ark Nova,
> a very popular game on here.

If the Ark Nova developer also want to volunteer 15 or 20 hours to do that here, have him contact me. Or even if you want to do it. I'VE even done it on other games, but it will not integrate well to the existing design. It comes off like you're saying that someone else did it, so we should be required to volunteer our time to do it, too.

I'm glad you enjoy the game in general, even if it's lacking all the finest bells and whistles.

2024 Aug 26 09:30 • Robyn Hood • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

I would like to renew this suggestion, because it seems to me the main point that still can be improved in an almost perfect implementation of Gaia Projet (thanks a lot for that!).
As already written before: misclicks can happen (description of my case here: boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=188034#p188034 ), and this feature would avoid game ruining consequences.
I think many players around here would be happy if you could reconsider its implementation.

2024 Aug 26 14:49 • Kayvon • Programiści uważają, że nie jest to dobry pomysł lub że stosunek kosztów do korzyści jest zbyt wysoki:

Robyn, if you are volunteering to implement this, please contact me directly. Otherwise, I believe the conversation has run its course.

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#50676: "Add Confirm and/or undo button for all action steps that are able"

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